Combat system... AGAIN

[matlu]

To be honest, I really don't know what to do with combat system. It is problematic, and very hard to get it balanced.  I know that some people have problem to understand it, and ask questions like: "how could commander kill my mech", or "why is predator so easy to kill".

#1
===

The current formula to compute combat result is:
IF (str + 1d6) >= (def + 1d7) THEN kill

It means:
1. strength of attacking monster is increased by random number in range (1..6)
2. defence of defending monster is increased by random number in range (1..7)
3. if "attack" number is higher or equal than "defending" number, the monster is killed

This formula leads to following probabilities:
Diff - is difference between strength and defence (It is strength MINUS defence)
Prob - is probability to kill

Diff: -6     Prob: 0.0%
Diff: -5     Prob: 2.3%
Diff: -4     Prob: 7.0%
Diff: -3     Prob: 14.3%
Diff: -2     Prob: 23.8%
Diff: -1     Prob: 35.8%
Diff: 0     Prob: 50.0%
Diff: 1     Prob: 64.3%
Diff: 2     Prob: 76.1%
Diff: 3     Prob: 85.6%
Diff: 4     Prob: 92.8%
Diff: 5     Prob: 97.5%
Diff: 6     Prob: 100.0%

For example, commander (str 5) vs. predator (def 7).  5 - 7 = -2, so there is 23.8% probability, that commander kills a predator.


That's how it works. I hope it's ok. If it was changed to:

#2
===

IF (str + 1d5) >= (def + 1d6) THEN kill

The proabilities are following:

Diff: -6     Prob: 0.0%
Diff: -5     Prob: 0.0%
Diff: -4     Prob: 3.3%
Diff: -3     Prob: 10.0%
Diff: -2     Prob: 19.9%
Diff: -1     Prob: 33.3%
Diff: 0     Prob: 50.0%
Diff: 1     Prob: 66.7%
Diff: 2     Prob: 80.0%
Diff: 3     Prob: 90.0%
Diff: 4     Prob: 96.6%
Diff: 5     Prob: 100.0%
Diff: 6     Prob: 100.0%

I think that first version is better. Just my opinion.

[flamingdragon]

I like first eqaution more.

[BlitzJoker]

In theory everything should have the probability to kill everything else. This is where I think the formula that was suggested by zz would be the best one to use.
Could you explain why you choose not to use that formula?
(The topic is:)
http://www.duelboard.com/forum/index.php/topic,161.0.html

Thanks

[matlu]

Ok. How do you like following combat system?

#3
===

Diff: -6     Prob: 0.0%
Diff: -5     Prob: 0.0%
Diff: -4     Prob: 2.7%
Diff: -3     Prob: 8.3%
Diff: -2     Prob: 16.5%
Diff: -1     Prob: 27.8%
Diff: 0     Prob: 41.7%
Diff: 1     Prob: 58.2%
Diff: 2     Prob: 72.2%
Diff: 3     Prob: 83.2%
Diff: 4     Prob: 91.6%
Diff: 5     Prob: 97.2%
Diff: 6     Prob: 100.0%

Note, that it's NOT symetric, and there is NOT 50% probability for equal strength and defence (it is 41.7%). I don't think it's a problem.

On the other hand, it solves many problem (there is pathetic 2.7% probability, that your commander gets killed by probe)

P.S. I'm not 100% sure, but it's quite likely that exactly same system was used in cyberwars

[Bakster]

Do you have to have a formula for this thing? If so, why?

[matlu]

Do you have to have a formula for this thing? If so, why?

Now, there doesn't have to be a formula. Probablity values can also be listed in a table. Formula is just more convenient. Anyway, the probles is, what values should be in the table.

[raikoukami]

the 3rd equation might solve alot of problems......but i don't know why don't you make a poll out of it and people vote

[matlu]

the 3rd equation might solve alot of problems......but i don't know why don't you make a poll out of it and people vote

yes it looks good... I'm only afraid, that probability to kill a commander in force armour (by another commander) will drop from 14% to 8%. Almost to one half. Force armour will be really very strong

[ManiacsHell]

I like the theory that everything should be able to kill everything, all the way to drone being able to withstand or kill a battlemech.  That first formula was closest, all the others so far seem to be limiting how far something can kill.  I'm not saying I want a drone to have a 10% chance of killing a BM by any means, but the possibilty should be there (1% or even less).  I haven't seen ZZ's idea yet, mainly because that link everyone keeps showing is broken, but it sounds good.  If no one wants that though, I'm thinking that #1 idea you had up there is good enough.

[matlu]

#1 was used for several weeks, but it did not prove very good. For example there was 14% probability that monster with strength 2 kills a commander (with defence 5).

After famuos "Bakster spam" it was changed to #2. That's what is used RIGHT NOW. I believe it's better than #1 (although it's quite similar)

I don't think that's it's perfect, but it's VERY hard to find a balance. I'm always trying to consider, what is probability to kill a commander in force armour, and other "real-life" examples.

[Andre]

Not that I am trying to make your life any harder matlu, but in Cyber Wars, I distinctly remember killing a commander that had force armor(8 def) with a probe(1 str).  Therefore making the difference -7.  Now I only have done that once.  Being that I have played several THOUSAND games and this is the only time it has happened to me, this means the probability is extremely low, however it was possible.

As of right now, I am fairly happy with the current combat system.  However, I feel that having a 100% or 0% chance of one monster killing another is not right. There should be a very, VERY, small chance that anything can destroy anything.  Even if it is a 0.09 % probability

[TheMcCool]

I like #2 and #3 more than #1. I prefer to win because I actually played better, not because someone had really bad luck, as funny as that can be.

[Andre]

To me there are two solutions to the problem:

1.  Players, especially new players who did not play the original Cyber Wars, are under the assumption that having a monster with strength higher than the defense of the monster it is attacking will always kill it.  They do not seem to understand that some of this game is left up to chance, and that sometimes even the best of us will take a bad beat.  The solution to this is just to try and educate new players about the rules and ideas behind the game.  Maybe by creating an online manual or tutorial on the game rules.

2.  Instead of trying to teach new players, you can just decrease the odds a low level monster defeating a higher level monster.  It seems to me that most people get upset when a monster with a level difference of -3 or more kills another monster.  So I suggest the odds on a -3 difference or higher should be a lower percent.

[matlu]

So I suggest the odds on a -3 difference or higher should be a lower percent

I'm very concerned about force armour, it would become too strong I think It's not so hard to get force armour, but it's harder to get something that's able to defeat it. I really don't know

[Bakster]

Perhaps there could be an item which destroys upgrades?