Go open source!

[Dantarion]

Please release this game open source...
You wouldn't imagine how quickly it would be developed...

I could easily do a game like this, but of course, im not gonna help u devolop it
unless i can benefit by putting it on my own site, and/or having my own userbase...

[tiraspol]

Uhh. Thats stupid. Releasing this in open-source would be the dumbest thing ever. Why would you want people ripping off your game.

[HellsRage666]

Sounds like Dantarion is looking to have some fun stealing Matlu's game... Matlu would be absolutely STUPID is he was to release this game in open source.

[BlitzJoker]

Hey why doesnt Adobe just go open source too!!?!!?

I could easily do a game like this, but of course, im not gonna help u devolop it

If you could so easily "do" a game like this, why would ask for it to be open source....wouldnt it just be sooo easy to make your own from scratch, even better than this!?

[BladeSabre]

I've done some thinking on this subject for my own future games, and I think it's a bad idea for networked games to be open source. I think I'll be making single-player open source games though.

[matlu]

I've done some thinking on this subject for my own future games, and I think it's a bad idea for networked games to be open source.

agreed

I think I'll be making single-player open source games though.

- wow, interesting. Do you have some concrete plane? At least, what genre it should be, what platform & language you choose etc.

[BladeSabre]

Up until recently I was using C, but then I learned Java at university and decided I liked it better. So I'm looking at small Java web games a bit like yours. Some old classics, and I'd try to come up with a few semi-original things too. Also I'm planning to do some larger Java games as applications: a couple of single-player RPGs maybe.

Networked stuff, in the far future: My main dream is a multiplayer RPG with strategic turn-based combat. Players can max out their characters in a few hours, and the game then focusses on having fun, with everyone on a level playing field, rather than endless levelling as in so many games today.

Also for the far future, I'm having discussions with my brother (who is also a programmer) about a new system of player content development. A world where players can buy land and build mini-worlds there for the other players to explore and solve the puzzles inside.

For the nearer future, I'm trying to work out how to put my own Java applications onto Nokia mobile phones. Because that would be fun. My brother tells me that if I work out how to do it, he will probably learn Java too.

(edited to add) My main problem with making anything open source at the moment is that my code is not very good. It takes so much more effort to make it clean and nice, and once I've got something working, I find it very hard to put the energy into making the source code presentable. It's really a matter of having the discipline to write it cleanly as I go along.

[matlu]

- pacman and javanoid are not my games. I found them on internet and put it on my page just to have more games. Anyway, writing at lleast one such simple game is probably very good way to get good in game programming, and then continue with something bigger.

- what is the reason to have it open-source? Do you expect other people to contibute?

- in fact I already started to work on multiplayer RPG. I hope that within few weeks I'll have something "presentable" (not playable of course). At the moment I have no idea about gameplay, combat system and such stuff. Turn based combat sounds really interesting... but it's probably not possible to make really massive multiplayer game this way. Turn based probably works only for very limited number of (concurrent) players. So you would probably make something similar to cyber battles, but with opportunity to upgrade your character, monsters etc.... and to keep some persistent state. I also think that it would be possible to create VERY good game based on cyber battles... just more advanced. If you decide to go open-source way, I might contribute (code, or at least know-how).
I  myself would really like to make "massive" multiplayer game, and for this I think turn-based doesn't work. But I still hope to come with something better than 'endless leveling' (right now no idea how it could work

[BladeSabre]

pacman and javanoid are not my games. I found them on internet and put it on my page just to have more games.

Aww, I thought Pacman was one of yours. Well, if you're up for putting other people's games on your site, would you be interested in using any of mine if I can come up with anything decent?

what is the reason to have it open-source? Do you expect other people to contibute?

It's so that other people can learn from it. With closed software, everyone has to come up with everything independently, which stifles progress and favours big business. If I release things under the GNU GPL, then anyone who uses my code in their own software is then expected to release their software under the same license. And thus it spreads. There are dishonest people about, who will steal code, but so it goes with everything.

in fact I already started to work on multiplayer RPG. I hope that within few weeks I'll have something "presentable" (not playable of course). At the moment I have no idea about gameplay, combat system and such stuff....But I still hope to come with something better than 'endless leveling' (right now no idea how it could work)

If you're looking at an end to the levelling treadmill, then what happens afterwards is the most important part of the game. Logically, the endgame needs to be designed first, and the levelling part of the game can then be designed around it.

Turn based combat sounds really interesting... but it's probably not possible to make really massive multiplayer game this way. Turn based probably works only for very limited number of (concurrent) players.

Well, the game can be massive and real-time, with turn-based combat. I was thinking about the players moving around the world in real-time, but when combat starts they drop into a turn-based scene of a similar nature to Cyber Battles. This means the game can be massive, even if only 6 people can fight each other at once.

[matlu]

Aww, I thought Pacman was one of yours. Well, if you're up for putting other people's games on your site, would you be interested in using any of mine if I can come up with anything decent?

sure, no problem

It's so that other people can learn from it. With closed software, everyone has to come up with everything independently, which stifles progress and favours big business. If I release things under the GNU GPL, then anyone who uses my code in their own software is then expected to release their software under the same license. And thus it spreads. There are dishonest people about, who will steal code, but so it goes with everything.

there are sure hundreds open source games and game engines (just have a look at sourceforge) - but if you feel that this world really badly needs one more.. then go for it

If you're looking at an end to the levelling treadmill, then what happens afterwards is the most important part of the game. Logically, the endgame needs to be designed first, and the levelling part of the game can then be designed around it.

yes... depending on point of view.. and your target audience. I think that you consider the combat most important thing of the game.  It is sure very good approach - you like strategy, and you want to target people who like strategy. For example in Runescape - strategy combat doesn't exist. Obviously it's targeted on people, who don't value the strategy, but they value something else (I don't really know what it is). Perfect game for given group of people.

So I (and you) will have to choose... what people we want to target, and what do they like and want. I don't know yet what gameplay will I choose. I feel that 'runescape' approach is quite stupid and simple... but apperently also quite succesful.

[BladeSabre]

I played Runescape heavily for a couple of years, and I think I've got some idea of what people value in it. The levelling, it's about making goals: being able to mine rune, or wear black dragonhide, or just be a higher level than other people. People can make goals, and put in the "hard work", and achieve their goals if they just put enough time in. And that's satisfying. But I think in some way it's a substitute for making goals and achieving things in real life. I know most of the players do have lives, but Runescape provides a bit of time-out from the uncertainty of "real" success and failure.

And then there's the attraction of using these hard-earned stats to smash up other players. Either in the Wilderness, or the Duel Arena, or for me, it's Castle Wars. There's just something fun about that.

I agree with you that both of us will have to choose what sort of people we want to target, and think about what they like and want. I think that whatever we decide though, there will be one part of the game that is "the most important", and the rest of the game will need to fit round that. You're right that I consider combat the most important thing in my game. So I'm going to design the combat first: put some maxxed characters in an arena and make them battle it out until I've got it right. Then everything else follows.

[cDigital]

Well, I know matlu don't like the idea, but open source is usually in the softwares best interest.. Flavors of unix, open source, my favorite web browser(mozilla) open source.  70% of the webservers are on Linux because they have microsoft money to sell it? no

Open source is great for software for the price of control.  But, hey look at how many people buy Linux when it's free.  Open source for gaming, look at how many MUDS there are.  I pay $50.00 for a chess site when it is open source. 

I was just adding this for the gaming guys like matlu and blade, look at how many concurrent users play this piece of crap.  http://www.battleon.com/

it amazes me. 

Here is a game I got hooked onto when I was looking for inspiration.  I was hoping to see what others have made using flash for games.  (Because flash is easy and I have 4 books on the shelf for action script.)  I ended up as a paying end user in the top 100.. hehe.. http://www.digisonline.com/tactics/play/

Now, to the suggestion.. Most "hooked" players for this game type the full path http://www.digisonline.com/tactics/play/tao042.html

u know what, this server us acting up lately, so maybe. http://www.tacticsarena.com/play/fpstao043.html

For the reason to full screen the browser and 'black out' everything, but the playing area.  For Java, well, I guess you can always reset settings to 640x480 for the applet to be full screen, but I still think you should make the background color black. 

[BladeSabre]

(This post doesn't really apply to simple turn-based games, but once we start thinking about real-time games and MMORPGs, then it starts to get serious.)

In a multiplayer online game, there are always players who wish to cheat the system. Now the server communicates with the clients by exchanging packets of data with them. This is how the clients know what they should be doing, and it's how the server knows what the clients are doing.

I know that "security through obscurity" is not considered to be a good thing, but if the software is open source, then a player can modify the client - and because they can see exactly how it behaves, they can make it appear to the server as if it had not been modified.

With the things you mentioned, there is no problem with people making changes to their own copy of the software in order to give themselves an advantage. Hypothetically, I can improve my web browser or my operating system to make things easier for me, and yay, no-one gets hurt. I can extend it to make it do things for me that I would previously have had to do myself. I can modify it to make it give me information that was previously difficult to get at.

But in a multiplayer online game, this is disasterous. I'm sure you can see why. Even if the game is almost completely server-side ("don't trust the client with anything") then in many games there are still things that the player is expected to do that a computer can do better. No good at tracking a target with a mouse and clicking on it? Program the client to auto-lock. Hard to see what's going on around you? Make it so you can see through walls.

Now I'm not saying this doesn't happen when the source-code isn't available. It does, and it's not a satisfactory situation. But at least, most of the time, the developer can stay one step ahead of the cheats. It takes a huge amount of time and effort to modify or extend binary code, and there are usually small mistakes in the packets sent, which the developer can track, and ban the people involved. However, if the software is open source, this means that the player has access to everything the developer has done, and can easily keep up with any changes to the system.

Then there are unpopular things like PunkBuster which aim to solve that particular problem (among other things). But my reasearch so far suggests that all they have to rely on is "security through obscurity" also. They are masters of it, true, it is their one specialty - but that's all it is. Basically, they have many systems in place to catch people trying to modify their client, and also systems to keep track of who is where, so any offenders can be banned forever. So if modifying the client is difficult enough to get right, and one mistake means you're done, then the chances of anyone succeeding is infitesimal.

Would it be possible to have something like PunkBuster that was open source? I don't think so. If anyone has any ideas on that matter, I'd be very happy to hear them.

[matlu]

cDigital, thank you for your post... I'm afraid I don't really understand what are you trying to say. You started mentioning the advantages of open source, and you ended up with promoting other game site - which is not open source, as far as I can tell from brief look.

Open source for gaming, look at how many MUDS there are

MUDs are not open source, only MUD engines are open source. The engine is just "programming language". In this engine you can program the "world", and it is closed-source in every serious MUD. Anyway, it's not very good analogy.

In any case, I'm not going to open source the game.

[BladeSabre]

My impression was that the first two paragraphs were about the advantages of open source, and the rest of the post was about games that we could possibly check out for inspiration.